Full STEAM Ahead: Breaking Barriers in Technology and Accessibility

Joe Melillo:

Welcome, everyone, to Helen Keller Services fifth NDEAM webinar. I’m Joe Melillo, national employment and business specialist with Helen Keller National Center. Housekeeping, the interpreters and captionists are available, as you can probably see from the screen, and the interpreters will be pinned. If you have any issues, please write them in the chat box. You can write your questions in the Q&A as the panel moves along, and after the session or both. We’ll have the Q&A after the panel for about half an hour or so.

We’re all experiencing both personally and professionally the accelerating pace of new and accessible technologies. An owner I spoke with recently said technology is the great equalizer for persons with disabilities. The multi-talented and dedicated teams at Helen Keller Services for the Blind and Helen Keller National Center are committed to being on the wave of the technologies to enhance the opportunities for individuals who are blind, DeafBlind, and have low vision to thrive at work and live an enriched life. Our CEO Sue Ruzenski is leading us on that wave, and I want to introduce her now.

Sue Ruzenski:

I want to thank you, Joe. Good afternoon, everyone. So happy to be here with all of you. I am Sue Ruzenski CEO of Helen Keller Services. I am a white female in my sixties, shoulder length dark blonde hair, wearing a blue dress, black jacket and there’s a black background behind me. It is my honor and a genuine pleasure to welcome everyone and kick off this exciting event, our fifth annual National Disability Employment Awareness Month webinar.

The theme this year for NDEAM chosen by the US Dept. of Labor’s Office of Disability Employment Policy (ODEP) is: Access to Good Jobs for All and aligned with that theme, the Title for this year’s webinar is Full Steam Ahead. We have chosen to focus on the dynamic opportunities for careers in the exciting STEAM field: Science, Technology, Engineering, Arts, and Math. In today’s job market these disciplines hold the key to successful quality jobs with high earning potential, careers that are in high demand in the age of AI and Technology.

At HKS we are committed to offering vocational training and opportunities that result in quality competitive employment. Our central mission for people who are blind, DeafBlind and with low vision is to have access to good jobs and careers that are commensurate with a person’s interests, talents and aspirations. Our daily efforts are to engage youth and adults to develop skills to compete in the global economy and emerging industries.

The STEAM field holds promise for continued growth of sought-after occupations. Today we have an impressive panel of experts who are ready to share their experiences and perspectives on how the STEAM sector has enormous career opportunities for persons with disabilities especially individuals who are blind, DeafBlind and have low vision.

At HKS, we are committing to elevating and expanding our employment training services to include more exposure and skills training in the STEAM industries. We value our partnerships and teamwork among educators, business and vocational rehabilitation and we look forward to establishing new collaborations.

I would like to take a moment and thank the NDEAM Team at Helen Keller Services: Joe Melillo, Marilyn Trader, Liz Meade, Wendy Chouinard, Matt Salaverry and Brian Ward for making this event such a meaningful one and supporting our collective vision for and among people who are blind, have low vision, are DeafBlind or have other disabilities to live, work and thrive in their community of choice.

It is now my special privilege to give this over to Gus Chakias, Program Director of Assistive Technology Services, who is our panel moderator. Gus has over 20 years of experience working in our world and began his focus on assistive technology in 2001, working at the computer center at Peru college for visually impaired people. During the course of his career, he’s developed numerous programs, training both for people who are at a pre-vocational place or those that are really ready and soon being employed.

The programs proliferate under Gus’ leadership, and he teaches now a course that is at N.Y.U. through the ability projects which he also created and developed. He teaches at Hunter College as well. Since 2019 he teaches courses to the visually impaired. He’s on the advisory board of the Hunter College rehab counseling program. His leadership has made a true difference to the offerings we have at Helen Keller Services for the Blind and our training program. Take it away, Gus.

Gus:

Thank you, Sue. Welcome, everybody. Good afternoon, thank you for joining us today. I think we’re going to have a really interesting conversation today about STEAM and pathways to STEAM careers and individual journeys to STEAM careers.

I’m going to introduce them. Chancey Fleet, a blind Tech educator revolutionizing technology at the New York library. 3-D printing for accessible images and data. She is a library journal mover and shaker and she is reimagining digital inclusivity and I’m really looking forward to hearing about what her journey was like. Welcome Chancey and thank you for joining us today.

Chancey:

Thank you so much.

Gus:

Next up, Dr. Sara Coleman, who is reshaping education for those with sensory disabilities. From teacher to DeafBlind advocate, Sara chairs the Iowa commission for the blind. Her research opens doors for underrepresented populations in STEM. Welcome Dr. Coleman.

Sara:

Thank you so much. Looking forward to the conversation.

Gus:

Looking forward to hearing from you. Like I said, I am super excited to hear from each of you guys today. Next, Aaron Graham, software engineer. He’s a seasoned python developer and is passionate about inclusive technology. Aaron, welcome.

Aaron:

Thank you.

Gus:

Finally, Joe DiNero, assistant program director of assistive tech at Helen Keller Services for the Blind. He empowers blind and visually impaired individuals with cutting technology skills. He’s also ensuring digital accessibility working with usable net as a tester for accessibility and works with us in that capacity as well. Welcome, Joe.

Joe DiNero:

Thank you.

Gus:

Nice to have you with us. Thank you all for being here. I ask for each panelist to share about their personal experiences. The first question basically is tell us about your journey. What brought you to this presentation, this webinar today, but also brought you to your current vocation inside of the STEAM field? Whoever would like to go first, please do.

Chancey:

I have been in the assistive technology field for about the same amount of time as you have, Gus. I started in college working part-time with V.R. clients who wanted to learn their tech. There’s a really innovative program in Virginia that paired our V.R. clients with tech expertise with others who needed tech expertise. That was an unconventional but fruitful onroad. If you can build bridges like that, non-traditional pathways for people to break in, that’s so powerful. That’s why I’m here today.

I have been teaching assistive tech and working in assistive tech for a pretty long time now, but, if you had told me back then that I would be identifying as a STEAM professional these days, I would have been absolutely shocked. I grew up with, if nothing else, antipathy towards science, technology, engineering, arts and math and, in retrospect, that’s because I didn’t have access to the raised line drawings and other supports I would need to excel in the fields. Because I had an easier time in things like English, I thought those were the fields I was interested in and those were easy for me.

It’s been a really amazing experience for me to grow in my role and start meeting colleagues who are Blind and low vision who are doing science, technology, engineering, coding, arts every day. I got propelled in the place I am now in the field by connecting with those people, learning everything I could from them, and then having this desire to get those skills for myself and to figure out how to get those skills to the library patrons that I serve.

I help blind and low vision folks access hard-to-get information like tactile maps, diagrams, data representations and 3-D prints of objects, and I teach library patrons to be not only the consumers but the producers and creators and imaginers of those kinds of things. So I’m really excited to be a part of this field and part of this presentation.

Gus:

Chancey, since you brought it up, can you tell us a little bit about the dimensions program? Because I think it’s a really incredible program that you’ve created. I mean, the library offers so many diverse programs and trainings and workshops and support groups and stuff like that, that you really spearheaded, and it’s been really amazing to watch those programs grow. In particular, do tell us about how the dimensions project came about and how the 3-D printing conversation began for you and extended beyond that to your patrons?

Chancey:

The dimensions lab is a place where blind and low vision and sighted people can come together to make information accessible. It is my conviction blind and low vision currently live in a state of low vision poverty. We don’t get tons of image from an early grade. We don’t take it for granted at a conference venue we will be able to check out a map. We don’t get holiday cards with pictures. Many of us are spatial learners and thinkers and have the potential to contribute really meaningfully when we engage with spatial information but only if we can literally get our hands on it.

What the dimensions lab does is create a situation where blind, low vision people and our sighted allies can access the means of production. So Braille embossers that make graphics and thermal technologies and 3-D printing. Our lab is as accessible as possible and our pedagogy includes what to do when a piece of the work is inaccessible and how to work around it.

We believe in the capacity of blind people’s ability to understand and create images and believe broadly in the capacity of blind people to succeed and excel with non-visual approaches. We support institutions and museums that want to make tactiles on a low or no budget. We support students and families. We support adults who want to explore their world with spatial information.

We’re open six days a week with the equipment and support and workshops that anyone needs to become engaged in the world of making tactile graphics, known as raised-line drawings, so that spatial information is available to everybody.

Gus:

Sara or Aaron, is there anything you might want to add to this conversation about your journey to STEAM?

Sara:

I have Usher syndrome. I started with being identified hard of hearing as a kindergartner, first grader having hearing aids. Really, that didn’t impact my life as much or at all. But for whatever reason, I like science, and I liked problems, I like tearing things apart. I liked all of those things. As I went through my education, I didn’t realize how much my hearing affected my social, so I dove into academics. I was into projects and Girl Scouts and those types of things because I had to find what I could hang on to as a hard of hearing person.

I just liked the science, so I kept doing it. My school was minimum as far as accommodations. I could pretty much do everything that was required. I got a biology degree, then I fell into education and became a high school science teacher and did that work for 32 years. But when I hit my 40s, that was when I was diagnosed with Usher syndrome. My vision was deteriorating and it’s progressive.

So, I kind of hit a wall in relation to the sensory piece. I kind of look at it as STEM kind of saved me because I had all of my education background. I started a doctorate program and completed that work. My dissertation was women with disabilities in STEM careers. So trying to figure out the women that had jobs, what helped make them successful. A lot of the things that you mentioned already are the pieces that made them successful. They had access. They had parents that supported whatever they wanted to do.

I’m trying to take those ideas and see what those pieces are and try to give those like me who transitioned later in life. Maybe I don’t want to be in the classroom anymore, but I can still contribute. Now, I try to reinvent myself as a STEM advocate. I work mostly one-on-one, and I also am very involved in the State of Iowa in relation to accessibility for STEM for Iowa students.

I will mention accessible technology. Technology is awesome, but if you don’t have the attitude to use it, it’s not going to help. So I come to this conversation very much as a new user of accessible technology, and I think that gives me an insight for others who are trying to figure that piece of the world out in relation to STEM and those programs.

Gus:

Thank you so much, Sara. I love what you said about the attitude being such an important part. It really is. As we move through learning, right, learning. There has to be a hunger for learning in order for somebody to learn. They have to want it and I really appreciate you saying that.

Can you tell us a little about the research you do?

Sara:

The dissertation work really was surrounded with mobility and sensory disabilities. I decided to go across disabilities because I figured the themes would be stronger if different disabilities came up with the same themes. And the research really ended up focusing on the importance of family, the importance of the school. I’ll speak to one piece I thought was interesting about the research.

All my participants could point to not only one person but one moment in their life where that STEM piece came in, where that calculus teacher said, yeah, might take them more time to do it, but they can do it. Oh, I can do calculus. And that sent them down that path. Another one could remember that moment, it was an opposite moment, was, oh, you’re blind, you can only water flowers, that’s going to be your job for the rest of your life, and she basically said, heck, no, that’s not happening.

It’s those pieces that are interesting as well as making sure you have accommodations, how can you advocate. Because these women were in college in the early to middle 2000s and still struggling for their accommodations. Those were some of the findings within that research that helps inform how we can help people with disabilities achieve whatever dream they want.

Gus:

Do you feel that there is a difference between women with disabilities and men with disabilities in the STEAM field?

Sara:

My quick answer to that is I really can’t speak to that, in specific. In general, it is more difficult in some sense for men to have a disability in a STEAM field because STEAM is very masculine and male dominated so there’s that cultural pieces that can impact, but I think a lot of the findings would be relevant to both.

Gus:

Excellent. Thank you so much. I think this is a really interesting subject for all of us to really think about, like, what are the pieces that – and I love that the idea of the moment that inspired somebody to move into STEAM field. Thank you so much.

I guess, since you guys are not super forthcoming about volunteering yourselves, let’s go in the order I introduced you. Aaron. Tell us about yourself and about your journey to be here today and to be in your field.

Aaron:

Can you hear me? Honestly, hearing the other answers, I honestly feel I feel kind of prehistoric with my experiences because when I got into the workforce in 2017 I was straight up told by certain people to not share your disability, hide it at all expenses. If you think about what everybody is saying that is cave man mentality compared to where we are as a community.

I’m glad I’ve moved past that. If I can be very specific about one big challenge that’s been really difficult from day one, so, when I’m doing my own work on my computer, I was able to right away make everything bigger. I moved the monitor closer to me. But I struggled right away when somebody else is sharing information with me as opposed to me working by myself.

I remember in my first job my first assignment was given to me like a projector. We were sitting at a table and it was being shown up ahead. I didn’t see anything and had no advocacy skills to be able to say something about it. I struggled with that during the in-office times and in the pandemic when people were sharing their screens as opposed to being in the same place. Other people have 4K screens, a mouse cursor I can’t see, so I was missing a lot of information and my performance suffered greatly from that.

I didn’t know what to do. With the help of the other panelists and community, I got the strength to say something and say, hey, in order for me to be successful, I need the other people – you guys – to make things in an accessible format when you’re sharing information with me. On my own computer, some of the things I do is make the text larger, the mouse cursor larger and I like a black background with light text. When others are sharing their screen, I say would you do the same thing when screen sharing, then when we’re done go back to what it was. Most people are acceptable to that. There aren’t really people against me getting the information I need in order for me to do my assignment for them. It’s working out well. It’s a matter of speaking up, saying something, and advocacy.

Gus:

Advocacy is such a big part of our day-to-day, and I say – I’m going to say unfortunately, because advocacy has never been one of the things that I’ve super been interested in as an individual. I know how important it is. So I always have to train myself to advocate for things and to speak to things. But, really, deep down, I think a lot of us have been discouraged in the past to speak up, right, about speaking up, about asking for things. And I think maybe where my hesitation comes is from that historically, right. Does that make sense?

But advocacy is such an important thing, whether it’s self-advocacy or community-based advocacy. I think it’s such an important part of our lives, and I pray for the day when we don’t have to, right? Joe? Did you want to share your journey?

Joe DiNero:

So how I got to where I am. My interest in computers started 42 years ago. I am super dating myself now. I grew up in New York City, and in the ninth grade, my middle school was one of the fortunate few middle schools at the time to get a grant, and we got 30 Tandy TRS-80 computers, and with that we were able to do a year of learning the basic programming language, and I was hooked from that point forward.

And I didn’t get my own computer for probably another ten years, but I worked in the hotel industry for nearly ten years. I was recruited by a hotel software company. I ran my own Internet business in the late ’90s, including teaching myself how to do HTML and actually develop my own website. I was diagnosed around the mid 90s with retinitis pigmentosa, around the time I started my online business. At the time, for a lot of reasons, I eventually shut that business down. I had children and became Mr. Mom for many, many years.

But then, in the mid 2000s, I always knew I wanted to go back to work and pursue higher education. So, I went back to school for computer science. When vocation rehab was talking to me about it, they were, like, well, there’s not really anybody else that’s really done this as a blind user. I was, like, okay, I’m going to be the first one, then, and take that on.

One of the things that stood out for me during that computer science pursuit was one of my professors sat down with me once and was, like, well, what do you want to do in this field? And I said, I want to help people. Ultimately, when I go back to work, I want to do two things – I want to be able to do something I’m passionate about that I really love, and I want to be able to help people.

Fast forward to about ten years ago, when my youngest daughter was in school and I decided that I didn’t want to try to finish out my degree, I just wanted to try to get back in the workforce, and there were two things I looked at. One thing had nothing to do with technology. My other passion is fitness, so I thought about pursuing getting the certification and being a personal fitness trainer. And the other thing is what I do now with Helen Keller, and that’s to be an assistive technology instructor professional.

The other role in digital accessibility testing – that’s happenstance. One day, when I was working, I got, within the span of an hour and a half, four different emails, one including from Gus, an opportunity at UsableNet. I thought I should probably get this job, so I pursued that job. It was as an accessibility tester. I have been in that role six and a half years now.

I tell people all the time that I have the wonderful pleasure of – I get paid every week, and I make a difference every week. In my role in Helen Keller, it’s more on a one-on-one individual basis, and with my role in UsableNet, my work has more of a global impact. That’s why I do what I do.

Gus:

When I work with transitions for students, we talk about the challenges, but how do we get past those challenges? We just talked about advocacy. One of the things I do with my transition students, since I went to college as someone who was visually impaired, I try to share what I experienced and what I did to work around it, and advocacy is so important.

Being proactive is so important because a lot of those challenges that we had, certainly on the accessibility side – I had so many challenges. It’s a little bit different now with digital textbooks, but, at the time, trying to get accessible textbooks in a digital format was a bit of a challenge. So I stress to all my students, you have to advocate for yourself.

You know, when you walk into the Disability Services Office of your university, they should know your name, because they knew mine. It means you’re in there on a regular basis where they know you. I teach them to be proactive. As soon as you register for your classes, go to those professors that you’re going to have classes with in the next semester and go to their office now. Get that book information. Get everything you need to know. Tell them what you need. That way, when you walk in on day one, you’re at least walking in the door armed for bear as much as you possibly can be.

Chancey:

One of the things that I have found helps me connect with patrons that are presenting as less engaged or less motivated is I think I’m more successful when I am led by an individual’s interests, and I know that’s not feasible every single time, but somebody, for instance – just think of a real basic example. Somebody who won’t practice voiceover and they come every two months and we’re going over the same gestures because they won’t practice voiceover.

Again, nobody wakes up and says today I’m going to be my own enemy. If you can present them with something that’s more fun than the learning is annoying, if you can present them with you need to deal with spatial ways out on your iPhone, so I’m going to give you a crossword or chess. Maybe somebody’s really motivated by music or photography. Whatever it is that engages that person, if you can provide instructional content that relays the things that you need them to know in a way they want to receive it and practice it, it really helps.

Sara:

I’m just going to add a couple of things. I’m a science person, love numbers, love data. I know this is not true for all, and when we look at specifically blindness and visual impairment. But an interesting data point is that the unemployment rate for blind people in this country is floating around 65 to 70%. Of the 30% that are employed, 66, two-thirds, use Braille on the job daily, and 90% can read and write in Braille.

I bring up that point because that goes back to that training piece, and that goes back to access. And if we know these literacy pieces, these communication pieces are critical, that’s something that I would offer that sometimes a blind child is patted on the head, well, you can just listen to the book, you will be fine, but there’s deeper education issues when thinking about those types of communication.

My last point, I was just thinking about the job piece and the interviewing. I happen to be a “Star Trek” fan and I love Patrick Stewart, and Patrick Stewart was talking about, when you audition for a part – I’m saying, like, audition for a job – when you audition for a part and you’re so nervous, oh, my gosh, am I going to get the part and do it right? And you walk in, he’s, like, remember, they want you to be good. They want to be done with this process. They want you to be the one.

Sometimes, we get so hung up into our own “I’m so afraid of the advocacy, do I disclose,” all these pieces, we forget the other side is we want you to be good. It’s just something I thought I would add as a flavor of the things that we’re talking about.

Chancey:

I want to add something about steps for advocacy. There’s a lot that good science and disability community might have in common. When we’re advocating we want to be really clear. We don’t want to say, hey, your class is inaccessible to me. We want to say I’m unable to access printed handouts and PowerPoints, so I need to be able to access them.

We are not directly responsible for all the learning taking place. If I tell someone they need to fix the semantic structure in a document according to web content accessibility guidelines, I’m going to drop that listing and send them resources with fun videos and easy videos, that way it’s off my plate and they have something to work with other than me just saying something is wrong.

At the end of good communication, the recipient of your communication should feel they can identify positive next steps they can take. So, in my example, they know they can add semantic structure to their document with headings and know I will be pleased with the development, and I’ve laid out a road map for them, and that takes out the uncertainty, anxiety and awkwardness away from it on their end. You want to put people in a mental space where they’re primed and have everything they need to help you get your advocacy request addressed.

Wendy:

We have questions and comments I would like to present to the panel. One is from Nora Clark. She said I found working with transition-age students that we need to consider the whole person and other possibility disabilities that may impact their motivation and participation. Also, COVID really hit my students hard, and many experienced depression and further isolation. Any thoughts on that?

Sara:

I think one point I would make is COVID affected the disability population even more, but it’s affected the entire population – education, teachers, expectations – and I think the mental health component is something that, when you’re looking at the whole person, is making sure that they have those supports, and I think that goes back to our conversation about find your people, get your support, get that group, and I think that’s important. The answers to the COVID, we’re still figuring that out, in my mind.

Aaron:

I have something I want to add and I think this will be a question for Sara because she is the statistics person of the panel. So, I’ve really thought a lot about how much interaction and engagement really contributes to individual success, and I’ve noticed so much over my career that a lot of it is intangibles that you can’t directly measure right away but end up helping in situations where you won’t necessarily be able to point back to. It’s because of, oh, my conversation with that person or working with that person that helped me here. I know that working together digitally and, also, in-person as well with hybrid settings really has a lot of benefits, and I was wondering from Sara, do you have any statistics with success with hybrid and office settings and collaboration versus the easy way of, oh, do it yourself type of thing?

Sara:

Organizations might say they’re inclusive or might have that word in their mission statement, but just because it’s in a binder somewhere doesn’t mean it happens. What I’ve found in the research and the literature, a lot of what you’re talking about, are my work peers supporting me sometimes from moment to moment where I can’t get XYZ to work specifically because of my disability I can’t get something to work that I need – hey, I just need a hand with this or some eyeballs really quick, and that’s how I do my accommodations for those short little moments.

So, when you think about those relationships, I have to have the relationship with my peers for those types of things to happen naturally and easily. The same thing happens when they can’t figure out something with their computer and I’m, hey, hit the OR and you will be fine. I can help in my own way and they figure out what I’m good at and they know, okay, that is what she might have help with. That intangible piece, the qualitative part of being a human being in a work environment.

I’ll tell you what, Aaron, I’ll dig and see what I can find because there’s tons of COVID research out there now trying to figure out — businesses are trying to figure out do we get more productivity by bringing people out in the office or leaving them out in their homes? The guts say bring them to the office, but the answer might be actually keep them in their homes.

Wendy:

We do have a few more questions. We have about seven more. The next one: What can employment specialists ask or do to delve into possible STEM job goal options for job seekers?

And then there’s another — it ties in sort of with that — can you please talk more about action steps for self-advocacy?

Sara:

As far as STEM employment, sometimes it’s just the basics. It’s the basics – I actually wrote this down and, of course, I can’t find my notes now – but it’s the basics of I need to be able to navigate as a blind and DeafBlind person. I’ve got to be able to get around, take care of myself, access information. I need to understand the specifics.

So, say I want to be an astronomer and that’s a STEM field, how am I going to access data? How am I going to learn the math I need to learn? Because I’m going to have to be in high-level physics. So those are some of the things to think about in relation to what you might need.

I throw out a quick example – there are cool astrophysics going on where they sonofy – it’s done by sound. So they will get data from a star that’s far, far away, and the data will sound like it goes up high, and then goes lower, and that tells you what the shape of the graph is, and you can use that as a blind person to figure out other things going on within the system.

I mean, I’m fairly sure most people on this call might not even have known that existed. So that’s a piece of where you need to get into. I’m going to do a shoutout for two conferences. One is called an Island conference, and they’re running that next September 18th and 19th, I believe. And SY access. The conference will help people in STEM because those are the professors, the researchers, the programs showing how you can help people get access.

Wendy:

Another question from Nathan Bulk. He says I aspire to be an AT instructor though options are limited. I applied for roles in an Apple store. What are some of the strategies I can use to interact with customers in environments that are noisy or that have background noise? Thank you again for this event.

Sara:

I don’t know enough about the Apple store, but I would assume that there would be some office space or some place where you can duck out, for one. That would be something I would see or ask about.

Gus:

I’ve got to be honest with you, I sometimes really struggle with loud spaces, you know, walking through them and communicating with people and knowing who I’m speaking to. I often use my auditory — my listening skills to kind of determine who I’m talking to. Obviously, I ask when I’m not sure. But I don’t know. I wish I had a solid answer for that.

I do know there are definitely people within Apple that work in the stores with disabilities with vision impairments. I even know somebody with dual sensory loss. I can’t say it’s been easy or easy for the individuals that I do know. But they have a level of determination to make it work because it’s what they want, right. That’s what’s giving them the drive is this is what I want to do, and I’m going to make it work.

And, sometimes, it does leave them with frustration. Sometimes it leaves them with a tremendous amount of, wow, I made a change today. I made a difference here. One other thing I mentioned is about bothering people. I want to speak to that really quickly. We all have stuff that we’re good at and we all have stuff we’re not good at, whether we’re sighted, not sighted, hearing, not hearing, and so on and so forth.

We should never feel like we are bothering people. We’re all in a space to do a job, right? I’m in my office right now at Helen Keller Services for the Blind. We’re all working toward the same mission. So, if I’m asking somebody for support, it’s inside of that conversation. It’s not inside of, oh, help me, I’m helpless. No, I’m asking for support to complete a task so we can fulfill a shared mission or vision.

Aaron:

I think it’s a good coincidence that the Apple store was mentioned. Later this year, AirPods Pro, the earphones made by Apple, will become over-the-counter hearing aids. So they will help with hearing environments, and when in a noisy environment, it will help tone down the noise and focus on who you’re talking to. So great stuff from Apple. If you’re concerned about conversations with people because of hearing loss, I think Apple is a good choice.

Joe Melillo:

Thank you, everyone. We could go on for a long time here. We can certainly answer the questions. I want to thank Gus, Aaron, Chancey, Joe and Sara for all your input. Most of you on the call from the V.R. or blind services world either as individuals who are experiencing being blind, having low vision or DeafBlind, but there are so many from different states, and we hope that the input and the advice and direction that the panelists and Gus have shared make a difference for you in supporting the communities that you serve.

We’re open to other questions, input, and so on, offline and look forward to hearing from you and seeing you next year. Thank you.

Gus: Thank everybody for joining us today and thank you to the panelists for sharing your lives and experiences with us.

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